Jochen Mass is a driver who experienced many incredible moments in his career - both beautiful and cruel ones. Already in his debut in Formula 1 he has been involved in "the crash of the decade" and his first and the only victory he got under tragic circumstances, when Rolf Stommelen crashed at the streets of Barcelona, killing several spectators. He used to share a garage in McLaren with two world champions - Emerson Fittipaldi and James Hunt. As far as cooperation with the first one was brilliant, a partnership with English playboy hasn't turned up to be successful because of many strange business deals, what have seen the day light many years later. He retired from Formula 1 after two huge accidents, including the one when Gilles Villeneuve died, however, he found himself happy in Sports Cars, where he even managed to win Le Mans. In long and honest conversation with ŚwiatWyścigów.pl, he also shares his point of view for the latest changes that have introduced to motorsport in order to increase the level of safety.
Wojtek Paprota: Jochen, what do you do nowadays that you are so busy and reaching you is not an easy task?
Jochen Mass: I am busy with some vintage events and I have just came back from Paris from the RetroMobil. I am still occupying myself with beautiful cars and when I was a child these cars were already in good use so it is great to still be in touch with them.
Wojtek: I know that you used to work for TV recently, do you still do it?
Jochen: Yes, I was in the commentary for a couple of years but now I am not doing it anymore.
Wojtek: But are you up-to-date with what is going on in Formula 1?
Jochen: For sure I am, I still follow it!
Wojtek: So what do you think about the new solution to protect driver's head what is called "halo system" and it is endorsed by the FIA since Jules' Bianchi accident?
Jochen: I haven't looked into the technique details but anything to protect drivers is great. However, I think that it would have been easier to introduce a better system to avoid having any machinery driving around at the track. I think that it is necessary. You could have any special rails and they could stretch a long way and reach practically everything and they didn't have to drive through the track. In Japan we had a recovery vehicle, or whatever it was and it is totally unnecessary to have that. But I think it is also about the driver's responsibility. I don't think that you could have avoided it if we have a halo system already introduced. I am actually not for it in a way, I would rather want to see better recovery systems for cars. I think that it can be done quite easily and I think we need to focus on that because it would help more than some sort of any elements to protect drivers head in cars. We can't drive GT cars or sports prototypes or so on and so on because that would be just safer. We have to keep Formula cars Formula cars.
Wojtek: Jules Bianchi had his fatal accident more than a year ago and he passed away more than half a year ago, 22 years after the last death in Formula 1 and everybody is talking about it...
Jochen: It touched people's perception and the FIA and Jean Todt and as much as I still like him I think that his ideas are basically good enough but I would not target to these sort of activities in that fear. Yes, make cars safer, safer, safer, but leave them still cars which are driven by responsible drivers. Bianchi could have avoided easily but he went to quick. He went off so he would have hit the Armco quite hard if he hadn't crashed into that machine. I am sure that he would have been injured as well because he was going very quick at that moment. This is something that drivers have to learn too - to drive at the limit. That is why they are the best drivers in the world. They have always been the best but nowadays we have to drive as safe as possible and of course, now we don't have a lot of accidents but it is still about our responsibility.
Wojtek: How did the situation look in your times when we have much more deaths?
Jochen: Many things have changed over the last few years. Now there are a lot of money, there are big companies involved, there is a lot of promotion but everybody still wants it risky and dangerous but it must not kill anybody. We have always liked the aspect of adrenaline and the endurance but nothing must happen. Today it is pretty contradictive in a way. I think it is just about some things what are bit strange and superfluous for me. It is hard to pronounce it because we can't talk against safety, but on the other hand I also think the sport, especially motor-racing, became over the years less dangerous. People still want to see the spectacle so we are still racing. Everybody can do it but people try it reckless and with no respect to the others, to the cars and to themselves. Drivers are bumping into each other all the time and people still take risk what they shouldn't. Even though the cars are even faster, we have fewer deaths because everything is much safer.
Wojtek: How would you feel, when you had to drive any of your cars from the 70's or 80's? Would you feel any kind of fear?
Jochen: If I can drive any of my cars from the 70's or from the 80's I would love it. The only fear I have is that it breaks down or I have an engine problem. We don't drive it on the limit, we still drive them quick but safely.
Wojtek: Your debut in Formula 1 took place in 1973 at Silverstone and as I remember this Grand Prix is famous for a huge accident what happened at the first lap when Jody Scheckter took out 8 cars and 3 of them were Surtees cars and you were one of these. Right after that Sir John got furious and caused a little mess in the paddock so I guess that it wasn't a dream start for you, was it?
Jochen: It was of course not a nice first race in Formula 1. Three cars from the team were destroyed and it was hard for John Surtees, however, it was typical race accident. We didn't think much about it and cleaned up everything because 2 weeks later we had another race. Nobody likes accident, but what can you do? They are part of racing and part of Formula 1. I have only injured my foot a little and we didn't have any more problems due to that accident. It was just hard for the team because it was expensive and we didn't have so much money anyway and three destroyed cars were a big expense for John Surtees.
Wojtek: In your second race you took solid 7th place and your third race took place at Watkins Glen and it was the final Grand Prix of the season but due to Francois Cevert's fatal accident the atmosphere was probably not so pleasant yet again. You were really young, at the beginning of your career and how those circumstances affect your approach to Formula 1?
Jochen: Of course it wasn't nice for anybody. What is more, Peter Revson died right after that in South Africa. That was a big stimulus to make the circuits safer. Not much the cars, but cars too, but primarily the tracks, because we could blame the circuits for these crashes. In Cevert's case, it was a mixture of those, because the cars at Watkings Glen always had been set up quite softly. That was the time when we really improved the circuits. Jackie Stewart worked hard on that and it was good. Of course, we had some fancy, catchy parts what had to meet the needs and it didn't really worked on that, but it gave an impression that you really do something. It was not very effective but at least, it was a step in the right direction. Throughout many years we increased the level of safety in many areas, introducing cushions in some of the cars and some things like that. Cars were becoming quicker and quicker so we needed to increase safety as well. Then I would have rather seen cars going a little bit slower and keep tracks a bit more sheltered with some better barriers and so on, like cushions in certain areas. Cars went too radical. There were quicker and quicker and they had to be equally safer.
Wojtek: Do you think that those changes also had an influence on the people's approach, not only the drivers'?
Jochen: Now the cars are incredible but I am not really certain if it is good for the spectators and good for the sport and for the drivers as well because they sometimes go too reckless. You can't go fast and don't think about anything. You don't have these big, wide circuits anymore which were very demanding for drivers and for the fans. You can't forget that you also have to use your brain during watching the races. I don't agree with an opinion that Nürburgring was too dangerous and too boring because people couldn't see the cars on and on. You have to have your eyes but you also have to feel the race. At Nürburgring you were standing at one place and you could hear the cars for a while but you were also analyzing what was going on and that was much more interesting.
Wojtek: After season 1973 everything seemed to be much better in your career because you signed the contract with McLaren by the end of 1974 and you even won the race in your 6th start. It happened in Barcelona, at Montjuic Park, when Rolf Stommelen had a serious accident when several spectators died.
Jochen: This accident happened not so much because of the track but the barriers. It was a joke. If the barriers are not in place or they are not prepared properly there is no way to have a race. There were some spumes missing and it was a great mess. The organizers treated this race so unprofessionally and that was, of course, ridiculous. Something must have happened under those circumstances. What's more, there were some people like journalists and photographers who shouldn't have been that close. It was ironic that it happen there. It could have happened in Monaco as well. It was normal race accident - two cars touching each other's wheels and one of them spun off and hit the barriers with its debris flying around so the people should not have been there. You can't race in a fear that something like that can happen and the spectators should understand the danger that comes along the racing.
Wojtek: Was it possible to celebrate under those tragic circumstances?
Jochen: You cannot celebrate and you can't even look at it as a victory. For me it was an ironic thing that I won it. I wasn't happy about it, I wasn't proud of it, it was just in statistics as a victory in the end and it counted. For me that race was normal. It was a pity. We have agreed before the race to drive somehow "slowly". To race, but slow. I had suggested that and everybody said that it had been a good idea. However when the lights went off, everybody took off like crazy. That was no how close to what we had been talking about. I had been asking myself questions like: "What did we just decide? Why did you do that?". I was shocked but decided to race as well.
Wojtek: How did McLaren look in the 70's? How professional was that team? Now we are always talking about them as frontrunners but when you joined them, they were just starting their adventure in Formula 1 and the titles were yet to come.
Jochen: McLaren was already a good company with great people managing several departments - Gordon Murray, Ron Dennis, Tyler Alexander. There were making great and safe cars. The atmosphere was great as well and it was a fantastic place to be. Now they are even more professional with the even bigger budget but I am not sure if they are building better cars, but definitely much safer.
Wojtek: In 1975 you were racing in McLaren alongside Emerson Fittipaldi who was already a double world champion and he was defending a title. Next year, in 1976 he was replaced by James Hunt. How can you compare them and their work ethic?
Jochen: Emerson was a true champion. As you said, when we were racing in McLaren he already had 2 titles in a pocket, he was more experienced than me and he was in fact a team leader. I learnt a lot from him. James was different. He used to be called "golden boy" and everybody cherished him, but he wasn't. He was quick, but he wasn't really quicker than me. I felt it because we were racing in Formula 3 before together and he wasn't quicker. It was a pity for me, but of course in McLaren, English team, being German is not the same as being English. He was good but he had an unjust advantage by having better engines but that was something I could cope with. In fact, I was quicker than him the whole season, but I have just beaten him in a few races. It is a shame that we were not treated equally, under the same rules. It has changed by the end of the season. I was given the engines from the mid-season what had 60-70 horsepower more. There were just 3 teams who had them - Lotus, that was giving them to Andretti, Tyrrell, where Scheckter was allowed to drive them and McLaren with Hunt. Nobody knew that even the teams were not told. It was sort of an evolution engine that was prepared by Cosworth in order to try some new systems. They put a lot of money in to develop them. They were given only to those 3 teams so in general it was no chance to beat them but I managed to do it a few times. I heard it from Keith Duckworth many years later. He said that we had no chance with those engines. I thought "damn it" and then I spoke to the team and they said "bullshit, it never happened, we knew exactly what we had" and I said "sure, forget about it”.
Wojtek: After racing for McLaren you moved to ATS team and then to Arrows where you had a chance to drive an A2 car, what is thought to be one of the prettiest car in the whole Formula 1 history. Do you agree with this opinion?
Jochen: Arrows A2 was good but we couldn't develop it to the level we wanted. I made a few mistakes what was a pity because we couldn't get the maximum out of the car. I think that this car could have won a Grand Prix. The team was good, the car was splendid but it was extremely difficult to set up. It was too soft and it should have been at least 10 times harder. That was something I have never coped with. It was actually really heavy so some certain parts should have been much stronger to let it work better.
Wojtek: What was the case that although you had a great team you were not able to achieve successes with Arrows? I guess that with former drivers like Jackie Oliver and Alan Rees as team managers and Tony Southgate as a designer you should have had a great crew as well as the recipe for a success. Was it all about the money or it was any other important factor in the game what I don't know about?
Jochen: I think that it was also about the engines like I mentioned before as it lasted for a longer period of time. In Arrows the cars were always good, the team was good and the budget was good as well so it was lovely. Of course, we couldn't spend our money for everything we wanted but it was not the case. The problem was that we had this power disadvantage and we couldn't have overcome it even though our car was competitive. It is a pity that the competition was unfair because we really could have achieved successes then.
Wojtek: You retired from Formula 1 in 1982 after 2 big accidents. Firstly you collided with Gilles Villeneuve at Zolder who bumped into your rear wing and died a few days later and during the French Grand Prix you had a terrible-looking crash with Mauro Baldi. Did those accidents make you quit from Formula 1 or there was any other reason behind this decision?
Jochen: Partly, yes. The first one was not my fault at all and it could have happened to anybody but when it comes to the second one, it was a crash that I could have avoided. After that I realized that I was had been very lucky that I managed to survive it without any injuries and that, of course, made me stop racing in Formula 1.
Wojtek: So why you kept racing in Sports Cars after retiring from Formula 1?
Jochen: I was already doing it before retiring from Formula 1. I was racing in Sports Cars since 1971 and that was always very nice. I continued it because I had a good relationship with Porsche and the cars were good and, however, I knew that it was not much safer than Formula 1, I still enjoyed it. The races were nice, I was competitive so it was still a great pleasure for me to be there.
Wojtek: Did you still want to achieve something in Sports Cars or you were just doing it for fun with absolutely no pressure?
Jochen: No no no no, of course, I tried to achieve something, what I did. I wanted to win the world championship but there were no titles for the drivers at that time, there were only team titles, what we have almost won. Everything was really good but fun wasn't the only thing. The races were decent and demanding.
Wojtek: You won Formula 1 Grand Prix, as well as the Le Mans. Did you have any other targets you want to achieve during your racing career, for example winning Indy 500?
Jochen: The target was to survive those years and not to have an accident which could resulted very badly and stick me to the wheelchair for the rest of my life. That was the main target, really. I didn't look at this world like "I have to win this, I have to win that". I consider it as "drive as fast as you can and that will let you enjoy it". Sometimes I made mistakes but sometimes I managed to win but I think that it was a great attitude. You have to take the life how it comes.
Wojtek: What are your plans for the nearest future?
Jochen: Just to enjoy life and to take part in various motorsport festivals, especially those ones that take place at Goodwood. I am doing a lot of things like that and this is my occupation for the nearest future.
